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Signs, Foreshadowing or just things to mess with us...?
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02/05/2018 - 4:23 pm

I think I agree with Caitlin and don’t think that Lylyks play would be a longxterm parallel to the Strike books.

If we want to think in terms of book (/story) parallels, I thinkthat Leda and the Swan is more appropriate...

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02/05/2018 - 10:30 am

Kalliope said

SInce SW and through CoE Jo has used the Endymion-myth as a the recurring - and, as far as I'm aware of, only - metaphor for Strike's and Robin's relationship (what other references for C/R are you talking about?).

So, the real question is whether it's Lyly'so play OR the referenced myth she uses as metaphor/foreshadowing.

The main argument against Lyly's play being used as a foreshadowing would be, that the reoccurring theme of the SW chapter titles are jacobean revenge plays, which might be a reason why she chose this quite different version of the antique myth.

(And weve already talked about the reasons why the Lyly play would be a great source of foreshadowing)  

Yes I know why Lyly's play could be a good source but I personally don't think she used the quotes or the plays in The Silkworm to foreshadow Cormoran's and Robin's relationship! I think they fulfilled their porpuse for only that book! But I might be thinking to simple on the matter!
It would be nice though to know if she intends to make them a couple or not because I wouldn't like to waste another 7 years with a will they/won' they relationship as I did with Donna and Harvey in Suits! It's so damn frustrating until it gets boring!

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02/05/2018 - 8:50 am

Caitlin said

I don't find it necessary! Why it's only the Endymion play so important and not the other works mentioned though out The Silkworm as well then?  

SInce SW and through CoE Jo has used the Endymion-myth as a the recurring - and, as far as I'm aware of, only - metaphor for Strike's and Robin's relationship (what other references for C/R are you talking about?).

So, the real question is whether it's Lyly'so play OR the referenced myth she uses as metaphor/foreshadowing.

The main argument against Lyly's play being used as a foreshadowing would be, that the reoccurring theme of the SW chapter titles are jacobean revenge plays, which might be a reason why she chose this quite different version of the antique myth.

(And weve already talked about the reasons why the Lyly play would be a great source of foreshadowing)

wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure

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02/05/2018 - 8:18 am

Kalliope said

Of course they match the chapter. But whenever there is a text reference (in any literary work) the context of the hypotext (the referenced text) is ALWAYS quoted aswell. Otherwise you could've just used a different text with a similar quote to begin with.  

I don't find it necessary! Why it's only the Endymion play so important and not the other works mentioned though out The Silkworm as well then?

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02/05/2018 - 8:04 am

Caitlin said
It's my personal intepretation and I might be mistaken but the quotes J.K Rowling used in The Silkworm from several books before each chapter it's not about the story of the books but that the quotes to kinda match each chapter!

For example:
Chapter 18: For this I find where jealousy is fed, Horns in the mind are worse than one in the head

It's the chapter where Matthew fights with Robin because he is jealous and angry about her talking on the phone with Cormoran.

Chapter 30: ...as an earnest of friendship and confidence I'll acquaint you with a design that I have. To tell truth and speak openly one to another...

It's the chapter where Robin and Cormoran talk about why he kept Robin, that Matthew doesn't like her job and what is it she wants.

Chapter 34: O Lord! What have I sad? my unlucky tongue!

It's the chapter where Robin by accident confesses on being present in the accident while Matthew reads the newspaper.

Chapter 50: CYNTHIA: How say you, Endymion, all this was for love?
ENDYMION: I say madam, then the gods send me a woman's hate.

That's from the last chapter and I believe it hasn't anything to do with Cormoran and Robin but it's referring to the hate Quinn made Liz feel for him.
Yes Charlotte might hate Cormoran for not showing up to stop her wedding but she wasn't mentioned at all in the last chapter in the conversation between Robin and Cormoran. Also I believe that by marrying Jago and send him the photo she believes she punished him enough for the time being!
And it's not about the whole play either, it's about the quote she used or so I see it!  

Of course they match the chapter. But whenever there is a text reference (in any literary work) the context of the hypotext (the referenced text) is ALWAYS quoted aswell. Otherwise you could've just used a different text with a similar quote to begin with.

wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure

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02/04/2018 - 11:28 pm

It's my personal intepretation and I might be mistaken but the quotes J.K Rowling used in The Silkworm from several books before each chapter it's not about the story of the books but that the quotes to kinda match each chapter!

For example:
Chapter 18: For this I find where jealousy is fed, Horns in the mind are worse than one in the head

It's the chapter where Matthew fights with Robin because he is jealous and angry about her talking on the phone with Cormoran.

Chapter 30: ...as an earnest of friendship and confidence I'll acquaint you with a design that I have. To tell truth and speak openly one to another...

It's the chapter where Robin and Cormoran talk about why he kept Robin, that Matthew doesn't like her job and what is it she wants.

Chapter 34: O Lord! What have I sad? my unlucky tongue!

It's the chapter where Robin by accident confesses on being present in the accident while Matthew reads the newspaper.

Chapter 50: CYNTHIA: How say you, Endymion, all this was for love?
ENDYMION: I say madam, then the gods send me a woman's hate.

That's from the last chapter and I believe it hasn't anything to do with Cormoran and Robin but it's referring to the hate Quinn made Liz feel for him.
Yes Charlotte might hate Cormoran for not showing up to stop her wedding but she wasn't mentioned at all in the last chapter in the conversation between Robin and Cormoran. Also I believe that by marrying Jago and send him the photo she believes she punished him enough for the time being!
And it's not about the whole play either, it's about the quote she used or so I see it!

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02/03/2018 - 3:13 pm

Kalliope said
Btw, while going through the chapter titles, I noticed that JKR references a crow, quite tellingly, as a metaphor -and this might be interesting in regards to the twitter header.

This is in CoE, 41 - the chapter where Robin and Cormoran avoid eachother (because of all the weirdness that Cormoran now knows he's in love wit her, and her feeling weirdly guilty about being back together with Matt):

"See there a scarecrow who waves through the mist." (BÖC, Out of the Darkness)

So, this might be a hint that the crow in JK's header alludes to something (or someone) coming between the romantic feelings Cormoran and Robin have for eachother.  

I'm sure there will obstacles but that doesn't mean they don't end up together in a future book!
That's why I say the Matthew drama isn't necessary at all! Robin has to be alone and discover herself and she isn't going to jump from relationship to another and I doubt Cormoran would do a move on her while she just ended things with a man she was with for 9 years!
Charlotte is in for revenge but something must happen to provoke her, she can't just come out of the blue and say I'm gonna make him pay or at least I think so.
Maybe Robin and Cormoran need to be together so Charlotte can cause problems to them! Robin might discover herself but some things don't go away so easy... She will be still a bit insecure and Matthew's cheating will affect her future relationship/s.
Imagine Cormoran and Robin dating and Charlotte coming back the woman Robin considers Cormoran's love of his life... Even if Robin deep down will know that Cormoran is a different man than Matthew she will have her doubts and we know that Charlotte is a very good liar!
There are so many options... I could write them down but my post will be to large and boring to read!

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02/03/2018 - 2:51 pm

Btw, while going through the chapter titles, I noticed that JKR references a crow, quite tellingly, as a metaphor -and this might be interesting in regards to the twitter header.

This is in CoE, 41 - the chapter where Robin and Cormoran avoid eachother (because of all the weirdness that Cormoran now knows he's in love wit her, and her feeling weirdly guilty about being back together with Matt):

"See there a scarecrow who waves through the mist." (BÖC, Out of the Darkness)

So, this might be a hint that the crow in JK's header alludes to something (or someone) coming between the romantic feelings Cormoran and Robin have for eachother.

wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure

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02/03/2018 - 2:45 pm

Kalliope said

This is an unfnished list, but she uses quotes from Lyly in

- SW, Chapter 8: the quote references Endymion finally accepting a book which contains a portrait of Cynthia after having refused it twice before (Strike thinks about Robin and, gloomily, her impending wedding)
- SW, Chapter 50 (Cormoran kisses Robins hand)

- she alludes to the Selene/Endymion myth in the famous CoE Chapter 40 ("Searchin' for Celine")
- and she alludes to Robin as the Queen in CoE, 50 ("I'm out of my place, I'm out of my mind..."), wherein Robin unenthusistically tries on her altered wedding dress and only is described as "the radiant bride" directly after she has talked to Strike on the phone  

Thank you so much Kalliope! 🙂
I'm going to re-read those parts but for the life of me I can't re-read Career of Evil it made my heart hurt!
Many things can happen... Charlotte might come back to search revenge on Strike for letting her marry maybe as someone else pointed out Matthew is Tellus and he will get with Sarah who still loves him I suppose...
Maybe Cormoran will try and give another sense to his feelings for Robin at some point to avoid a romance but we have to see how Robin will react to the fact she has feelings for him and if she will do something about it!
But I still believe that even though J.K Rowling uses some paralles to other stories she can give a different route to Cormoran's and Robin's relationship! Maybe I'm a bloody optimistic and I loved the chemistry between Tom and Holly to much to think otherwise but I will hope for a twist! 😉

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02/03/2018 - 2:41 pm

Caitlin said
Oh by the way Kalliope the question is not related to you but to J.K Rowling! I wanted to say that to avoid misunderstandings 🙂

I also found this while searching on the internet:
https://www.bachelorandmaster.com/britishandamericanpoetry/endymion.html#.WnW9c7xl9dh

I don't know if it helps or has anything to do with the other stories but thought it would do no harm to have it here.  

great, thanks! 😀

Kaqu said
I love all the ideas and theories in this topic, but it's so hard to keep up! I have been reading along, but realise I first have to read more about the Endymion-myth to form an opinion. Just a random fact then that is right there in my head and completely useless: Jane Austen's brother Charles sailed on a ship called the Endymion. She mentions it in one of her letters. Sorry for the interruption, please carry on!  

that IS interesting!

What realls strikes (haha) me is, that JKR also uses other mythical couples in her chapter titles when the R/C is a main focus.

SW, 46 references Christopher Marlowes "Hero and Leander", also two mythical lovers who eventually both die BUT in Marlowe's version they don't and instead have sex. The title references Leanders almost death in the sea, while the chapter starts with Strike and Robin feeling glad for eachother after the successful interrogation of Catherine and Pippa.

wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure

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02/03/2018 - 2:28 pm

Caitlin said

I don't know quotes of the play so I can't say something about that! Could use an example though! 🙂

And I have another question that I will simply keep to myself because when I wrote it, it sounded kinda bitchy!  

This is an unfnished list, but she uses quotes from Lyly in

- SW, Chapter 8: the quote references Endymion finally accepting a book which contains a portrait of Cynthia after having refused it twice before (Strike thinks about Robin and, gloomily, her impending wedding)
- SW, Chapter 50 (Cormoran kisses Robins hand)

- she alludes to the Selene/Endymion myth in the famous CoE Chapter 40 ("Searchin' for Celine")
- and she alludes to Robin as the Queen in CoE, 50 ("I'm out of my place, I'm out of my mind..."), wherein Robin unenthusistically tries on her altered wedding dress and only is described as "the radiant bride" directly after she has talked to Strike on the phone

wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure

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02/03/2018 - 1:51 pm

Oh by the way Kalliope the question is not related to you but to J.K Rowling! I wanted to say that to avoid misunderstandings 🙂

I also found this while searching on the internet:
https://www.bachelorandmaster.com/britishandamericanpoetry/endymion.html#.WnW9c7xl9dh

I don't know if it helps or has anything to do with the other stories but thought it would do no harm to have it here.

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02/03/2018 - 1:47 pm

Kalliope said

CYNTHIA: Was there such a time when as for my love thou didst vow thyself to death, and in respect of it loathed thy life? Speak, Endymion. I will not revenge it with hate.

ENDYMION: The time was, madam, and is, and ever shall be, that I honored Your Highness above all the world; but to stretch it so far as to call it love, I never durst. There hath none pleased mine eye but Cynthia, none delighted mine ears but Cynthia, none possessed my heart but Cynthia. I have forsaken all other fortunes to follow Cynthia, and here I stand ready to die if it please Cynthia. Such a difference hath the gods set between our states that all must be duty, loyalty, and reverence; nothing, without it vouchsafe Your Highness, be termed love. My unspotted thoughts, my languishing body, my discontented life, let them obtain by princely favor that which to challenge they must not presume, only wishing of impossibilities; with imagination of which I will spend my spirits, and to myself, that no creature may hear, softly call it love. And if any urge to utter what I whisper, then will I name it honor. From this sweet contemplation if I be not driven, I shall live of all men the most content, taking more pleasure in mine aged thoughts than ever I did in my youthful actions.

So, they might be walking off hand in hand, but Endymion does not love Cynthia in Lyly's play.

EDIT: Cynthia ONLY kissed Endymion to save him. There was no romantic love between them. It's all about ideal love for an ideal woman/regent.  

I really think you're on to something here. I now understand the other topic you started about Cormoran's feelings about Robin.

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02/03/2018 - 1:42 pm

I love all the ideas and theories in this topic, but it's so hard to keep up! I have been reading along, but realise I first have to read more about the Endymion-myth to form an opinion. Just a random fact then that is right there in my head and completely useless: Jane Austen's brother Charles sailed on a ship called the Endymion. She mentions it in one of her letters. Sorry for the interruption, please carry on!

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02/03/2018 - 1:36 pm

Kalliope said

That's a bit of a non-solution, don't you think? Besides, she actually does quote Lyly; quite continuosly so, in most chapters where only Cormoran and Robin are concerned (she starts doing that - i think - in SW and contiues this in CoE).

And as there always is a reason for her references, we can only find solutions how the reference (or which parts of it) allude to what might eventually unfold (otherwise this whole thread would be a basically irrelevant).

In regards to her use of Lyly's Endymion myth, I think - after reading the play - that there are two (three?) crucial aspects she might reuse:

- Tellus/Charlotte (whose love turns into hate) coming in between Endymion/Cormoran and Cynthia/Robin

- Tellus/Charlotte harming Endymion/Cormoran because of that

- Endymion/Cormoran having the feeling that Cynthia/Robin is unattainable (in the play the differences of rank are the reason why Endymion cannot love Cynthia) and therefore convincing himself that he does not really love her and only worships her out of a sense of duty and honour.  

I don't know quotes of the play so I can't say something about that! Could use an example though! 🙂

And I have another question that I will simply keep to myself because when I wrote it, it sounded kinda bitchy!

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02/03/2018 - 1:32 pm

She might have used the myth but that doesn't mean that she is going to follow it until the end!
Also with the song she chose she might be just referring to the myth with Selene and Endymion and not Lyly's play.

I don't expect from J.K Rowling to do as she did in her previous books! She is the same writer but it's not necessary to follow the same patterns!

Anyway, I can't believe they chose Tom Burke and Holliday Grainger to interpret Cormoran and Robin just to have them looking and smiling sweet at each other!  

That's a bit of a non-solution, don't you think? Besides, she actually does quote Lyly; quite continuosly so, in most chapters where only Cormoran and Robin are concerned (she starts doing that - i think - in SW and contiues this in CoE).

And as there always is a reason for her references, we can only find solutions how the reference (or which parts of it) allude to what might eventually unfold (otherwise this whole thread would be a basically irrelevant).

In regards to her use of Lyly's Endymion myth, I think - after reading the play - that there are two (three?) crucial aspects she might reuse:

- Tellus/Charlotte (whose love turns into hate) coming in between Endymion/Cormoran and Cynthia/Robin

- Tellus/Charlotte harming Endymion/Cormoran because of that

- Endymion/Cormoran having the feeling that Cynthia/Robin is unattainable (in the play the differences of rank are the reason why Endymion cannot love Cynthia) and therefore convincing himself that he does not really love her and only worships her out of a sense of duty and honour.

wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure

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02/03/2018 - 1:11 pm

Kalliope said

Oh.... you're right! Only have SW as an audio book and misheard the passage. Would've been good though 😉

Caitlin said
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Endymion_(Lyly)

PYTHAGORAS: I had rather in Cynthia's court spend ten years than in Greece one hour.

GYPTES: And I choose rather to live by the sight of Cynthia than by the possessing of all Egypt.

CYNTHIA: Then follow.

EUMENIDES: We all attend.

[Exeunt all, led by Endymion and Cynthia who kissed and walked together hand in hand.]  

Thanks for the link! Unfortunately, the problem stays the same. Here's the crucial passage:

CYNTHIA: Was there such a time when as for my love thou didst vow thyself to death, and in respect of it loathed thy life? Speak, Endymion. I will not revenge it with hate.

ENDYMION: The time was, madam, and is, and ever shall be, that I honored Your Highness above all the world; but to stretch it so far as to call it love, I never durst. There hath none pleased mine eye but Cynthia, none delighted mine ears but Cynthia, none possessed my heart but Cynthia. I have forsaken all other fortunes to follow Cynthia, and here I stand ready to die if it please Cynthia. Such a difference hath the gods set between our states that all must be duty, loyalty, and reverence; nothing, without it vouchsafe Your Highness, be termed love. My unspotted thoughts, my languishing body, my discontented life, let them obtain by princely favor that which to challenge they must not presume, only wishing of impossibilities; with imagination of which I will spend my spirits, and to myself, that no creature may hear, softly call it love. And if any urge to utter what I whisper, then will I name it honor. From this sweet contemplation if I be not driven, I shall live of all men the most content, taking more pleasure in mine aged thoughts than ever I did in my youthful actions.

So, they might be walking off hand in hand, but Endymion does not love Cynthia in Lyly's play.

EDIT: Cynthia ONLY kissed Endymion to save him. There was no romantic love between them. It's all about ideal love for an ideal woman/regent.  

I thought it was another kiss since she kissed him to wake him up and save him...

There hath none pleased mine eye but Cynthia, none delighted mine ears but Cynthia, none possessed my heart but Cynthia. I have forsaken all other fortunes to follow Cynthia, and here I stand ready to die if it please Cynthia.

Also this part was a bit tricky while I read it and misinterpreted.

She might have used the myth but that doesn't mean that she is going to follow it until the end!
Also with the song she chose she might be just referring to the myth with Selene and Endymion and not Lyly's play.

I don't expect from J.K Rowling to do as she did in her previous books! She is the same writer but it's not necessary to follow the same patterns!

Anyway, I can't believe they chose Tom Burke and Holliday Grainger to interpret Cormoran and Robin just to have them looking and smiling sweet at each other!

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02/03/2018 - 9:35 am

janeausten24 said

Hmm I think the quotation was actually that the only thing that could match his fascination with Charlotte was his own fascination with unnatural death (sorry, hopeless memorizing nerd here). My personal bet is that Charlotte is going to wreak vengeance on Strike in some way, for not saving her from the hole she sunk herself in...Strike keeps saying, he's waiting for her to make her move...  

Oh.... you're right! Only have SW as an audio book and misheard the passage. Would've been good though 😉

Caitlin said
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Endymion_(Lyly)

PYTHAGORAS: I had rather in Cynthia's court spend ten years than in Greece one hour.

GYPTES: And I choose rather to live by the sight of Cynthia than by the possessing of all Egypt.

CYNTHIA: Then follow.

EUMENIDES: We all attend.

[Exeunt all, led by Endymion and Cynthia who kissed and walked together hand in hand.]  

Thanks for the link! Unfortunately, the problem stays the same. Here's the crucial passage:

CYNTHIA: Was there such a time when as for my love thou didst vow thyself to death, and in respect of it loathed thy life? Speak, Endymion. I will not revenge it with hate.

ENDYMION: The time was, madam, and is, and ever shall be, that I honored Your Highness above all the world; but to stretch it so far as to call it love, I never durst. There hath none pleased mine eye but Cynthia, none delighted mine ears but Cynthia, none possessed my heart but Cynthia. I have forsaken all other fortunes to follow Cynthia, and here I stand ready to die if it please Cynthia. Such a difference hath the gods set between our states that all must be duty, loyalty, and reverence; nothing, without it vouchsafe Your Highness, be termed love. My unspotted thoughts, my languishing body, my discontented life, let them obtain by princely favor that which to challenge they must not presume, only wishing of impossibilities; with imagination of which I will spend my spirits, and to myself, that no creature may hear, softly call it love. And if any urge to utter what I whisper, then will I name it honor. From this sweet contemplation if I be not driven, I shall live of all men the most content, taking more pleasure in mine aged thoughts than ever I did in my youthful actions.

So, they might be walking off hand in hand, but Endymion does not love Cynthia in Lyly's play.

EDIT: Cynthia ONLY kissed Endymion to save him. There was no romantic love between them. It's all about ideal love for an ideal woman/regent.

wit beyond measure is man's greatest treasure

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02/03/2018 - 5:39 am

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Endymion_(Lyly)

PYTHAGORAS: I had rather in Cynthia's court spend ten years than in Greece one hour.

GYPTES: And I choose rather to live by the sight of Cynthia than by the possessing of all Egypt.

CYNTHIA: Then follow.

EUMENIDES: We all attend.

[Exeunt all, led by Endymion and Cynthia who kissed and walked together hand in hand.]

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02/01/2018 - 10:49 pm

Kalliope said
Uh

Uhhhhh!! Mixing up the gender - I love it! My fascination for breaking (gender) boundaries aside, that actually does make sense in a weird way. Maybe not as perfectly as the other way round, but the whole love triangle being mirrored is quite appealing. Robin definitely admires strike, and Matthew is definitely envious of that. My question would be, if Matt is Tellus, would he attack Robin out of jealousy? I don't think so, but it's definitely fun to imagine the scenario that why.

Btw. tiny snippet that might go well with the Tellus/Charlotte potential foreshadowing:

in SW Strike describes Charlotte as being fascinated by unnatural death. That sounds to me like she's either going to commit a murder in order to get strikes attention, or she will be a client in context of a strange killing...  

Hmm I think the quotation was actually that the only thing that could match his fascination with Charlotte was his own fascination with unnatural death (sorry, hopeless memorizing nerd here). My personal bet is that Charlotte is going to wreak vengeance on Strike in some way, for not saving her from the hole she sunk herself in...Strike keeps saying, he's waiting for her to make her move...

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